Scraping Through France
@johnjrose.bsky.social
On an old boat. Taking it slow Keen on good food. Half n half, France and Australia.
Louis, you've given me fuckall of even a toehold on how you frame the entire question of human rights and what consitutes them, apart from "fellow humanity".
That's like trying to wrestle jelly. The presence of understanding appears to be generally irrelevant.
Im off to dreamland.
That's like trying to wrestle jelly. The presence of understanding appears to be generally irrelevant.
Im off to dreamland.
May 20, 2026 at 4:11 PM
Louis, you've given me fuckall of even a toehold on how you frame the entire question of human rights and what consitutes them, apart from "fellow humanity".
That's like trying to wrestle jelly. The presence of understanding appears to be generally irrelevant.
Im off to dreamland.
That's like trying to wrestle jelly. The presence of understanding appears to be generally irrelevant.
Im off to dreamland.
And if you grant that this is indeed the reality, how do you make that decision without knowing something of "my inner life"? More pertinently, how do you then justify granting the full range of human rights to me once I attain adulthood, without an understanding of my inner life and its place?
May 20, 2026 at 4:07 PM
And if you grant that this is indeed the reality, how do you make that decision without knowing something of "my inner life"? More pertinently, how do you then justify granting the full range of human rights to me once I attain adulthood, without an understanding of my inner life and its place?
And if so, why then do you insist on withholding from me so many of the human rights you enjoy?
May 20, 2026 at 4:02 PM
And if so, why then do you insist on withholding from me so many of the human rights you enjoy?
OK. If I told you I'm only 10, would you still insist I'm a human just like you're a human?
May 20, 2026 at 4:01 PM
OK. If I told you I'm only 10, would you still insist I'm a human just like you're a human?
If you are human, Louis, what makes you so, and what things might I as a fellow human recognise in you?
May 20, 2026 at 3:47 PM
If you are human, Louis, what makes you so, and what things might I as a fellow human recognise in you?
I asked you first
May 20, 2026 at 3:46 PM
I asked you first
You are strong on the idea of recognising the fellow humanity of others. That, to me implies a tacit understanding of the standing of others in relation to me as a fellow human. Tolerance of difference demands knowing there *is* a difference in the first place, while acknowledging human commonality.
May 20, 2026 at 3:45 PM
You are strong on the idea of recognising the fellow humanity of others. That, to me implies a tacit understanding of the standing of others in relation to me as a fellow human. Tolerance of difference demands knowing there *is* a difference in the first place, while acknowledging human commonality.
Less and less so as the night leaks away
May 20, 2026 at 3:39 PM
Less and less so as the night leaks away
I have no idea. If you are, what makes you so?
May 20, 2026 at 3:36 PM
I have no idea. If you are, what makes you so?
The original point being about understanding not necessary?
May 20, 2026 at 3:34 PM
The original point being about understanding not necessary?
Oh come on, Louis. Youre smarter than I am.
If you can't articulate "human rights" beyond "we're all human" and you can't tell me how we can observe or adjudge that they have been granted to others, I'm completely at sea.
If you can't articulate "human rights" beyond "we're all human" and you can't tell me how we can observe or adjudge that they have been granted to others, I'm completely at sea.
May 20, 2026 at 3:33 PM
Oh come on, Louis. Youre smarter than I am.
If you can't articulate "human rights" beyond "we're all human" and you can't tell me how we can observe or adjudge that they have been granted to others, I'm completely at sea.
If you can't articulate "human rights" beyond "we're all human" and you can't tell me how we can observe or adjudge that they have been granted to others, I'm completely at sea.
If i no longer respond immediately, it's because its very late and I need to sleep.
Blessed relief! I hear you sigh
Blessed relief! I hear you sigh
May 20, 2026 at 3:29 PM
If i no longer respond immediately, it's because its very late and I need to sleep.
Blessed relief! I hear you sigh
Blessed relief! I hear you sigh
Perhaps. But I'm still genuinely trying to understand what you mean by "human rights", without reference to specific documen5s or repositories. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I'm not trying to be cute.
May 20, 2026 at 3:27 PM
Perhaps. But I'm still genuinely trying to understand what you mean by "human rights", without reference to specific documen5s or repositories. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I'm not trying to be cute.
How does one recognise that a person or group has or has not been accorded their human rights?
May 20, 2026 at 3:24 PM
How does one recognise that a person or group has or has not been accorded their human rights?
Apologies for misunderstanding
May 20, 2026 at 3:22 PM
Apologies for misunderstanding
You speak of "rights". Does that mean there's more than one?
Does each one apply in different circumstances, or all working at the same time everywhere?
Do they all apply equally?
If they can be adopted without the need for understanding, how do we actually know they have been followed?
Does each one apply in different circumstances, or all working at the same time everywhere?
Do they all apply equally?
If they can be adopted without the need for understanding, how do we actually know they have been followed?
May 20, 2026 at 3:21 PM
You speak of "rights". Does that mean there's more than one?
Does each one apply in different circumstances, or all working at the same time everywhere?
Do they all apply equally?
If they can be adopted without the need for understanding, how do we actually know they have been followed?
Does each one apply in different circumstances, or all working at the same time everywhere?
Do they all apply equally?
If they can be adopted without the need for understanding, how do we actually know they have been followed?
So you reduce the notion of rights to our mere existence as humans separate from the non-human world?
It's reducible to biology and genetics?
It's reducible to biology and genetics?
May 20, 2026 at 3:16 PM
So you reduce the notion of rights to our mere existence as humans separate from the non-human world?
It's reducible to biology and genetics?
It's reducible to biology and genetics?
Please outline the foundation you speak of, in words we can immediately recognise without recourse to further explanation, in a way where we know implicitly any particular person is being accorded them.
May 20, 2026 at 3:14 PM
Please outline the foundation you speak of, in words we can immediately recognise without recourse to further explanation, in a way where we know implicitly any particular person is being accorded them.
What are those person's rights? From where do they arise? And how do we recognise they are being honoured?
May 20, 2026 at 3:12 PM
What are those person's rights? From where do they arise? And how do we recognise they are being honoured?
The principles of dignity and personal sovereignty were at the base, but they needed to be translated in a thousand different ways into workable outcomes. And much of the battle was over detailed understanding of the individual lives of African Americans and of American women.
May 20, 2026 at 3:10 PM
The principles of dignity and personal sovereignty were at the base, but they needed to be translated in a thousand different ways into workable outcomes. And much of the battle was over detailed understanding of the individual lives of African Americans and of American women.
The arguments for civil rights and women in the 60s to 80s were not, in my memory, driven by "support without the need to understand". The arguments were fierce, detailed, bound in social relevance, community driven as much as broadly humanistic, and won by hard-scrabbled inches not universalities.
May 20, 2026 at 3:07 PM
The arguments for civil rights and women in the 60s to 80s were not, in my memory, driven by "support without the need to understand". The arguments were fierce, detailed, bound in social relevance, community driven as much as broadly humanistic, and won by hard-scrabbled inches not universalities.
Impossible for me to argue against the notion of shared humanity.
Translating the principle into enforceable jurisdictional frameworks, in the face of resistance, even from groups who otherwise claim their own adherence to the same principle, can be difficult. Persuasion preferable to naked power.
Translating the principle into enforceable jurisdictional frameworks, in the face of resistance, even from groups who otherwise claim their own adherence to the same principle, can be difficult. Persuasion preferable to naked power.
May 20, 2026 at 3:01 PM
Impossible for me to argue against the notion of shared humanity.
Translating the principle into enforceable jurisdictional frameworks, in the face of resistance, even from groups who otherwise claim their own adherence to the same principle, can be difficult. Persuasion preferable to naked power.
Translating the principle into enforceable jurisdictional frameworks, in the face of resistance, even from groups who otherwise claim their own adherence to the same principle, can be difficult. Persuasion preferable to naked power.
It's possible. I'll re-read and reflect.
May 20, 2026 at 2:52 PM
It's possible. I'll re-read and reflect.
Reminds me those women who objected (some still do) to equal rights and opportunity for women e.g. in the workplace or in access to finance etc, because it eroded the exalted position of wife/mother in the household.
Then some on the left saw it as capitulation to capitalist exploitation of labor
Then some on the left saw it as capitulation to capitalist exploitation of labor
May 20, 2026 at 2:51 PM
Reminds me those women who objected (some still do) to equal rights and opportunity for women e.g. in the workplace or in access to finance etc, because it eroded the exalted position of wife/mother in the household.
Then some on the left saw it as capitulation to capitalist exploitation of labor
Then some on the left saw it as capitulation to capitalist exploitation of labor
OK, but what is the foundation of that support?
When faced with discrimination or witholding or withdrawal of access to everyday civil rights granted the rest of us, do we simply fall back on the Universal Declaration?
Because opponents will see "sex" and put their dukes up.
When faced with discrimination or witholding or withdrawal of access to everyday civil rights granted the rest of us, do we simply fall back on the Universal Declaration?
Because opponents will see "sex" and put their dukes up.
May 20, 2026 at 2:42 PM
OK, but what is the foundation of that support?
When faced with discrimination or witholding or withdrawal of access to everyday civil rights granted the rest of us, do we simply fall back on the Universal Declaration?
Because opponents will see "sex" and put their dukes up.
When faced with discrimination or witholding or withdrawal of access to everyday civil rights granted the rest of us, do we simply fall back on the Universal Declaration?
Because opponents will see "sex" and put their dukes up.