F-Droid 2.0 Is a Game Changer
Torsten:
> Funny how you cut my quote there. I changed it to make it clearer
Your original phrasing was ambiguous. I focused on the wrong interpretation then, and we’re on the same page.
Torsten:
> funding structure is pretty intransparent, so I don’t know if company donations play a significant role there
They have stated that the vast majority of donations come from individuals.
Torsten:
> GPLv3 code could also simply be left out if an OEM wants to ship a tivoization-allowed GrapheneOS build.
Torsten:
> Motorola doesn’t ship GrapheneOS themselves and as part of their deal they do not permalock their bootloaders, and it doesnt look like they would?
I think the main point here is that GPLv3 will straight up scare some companies away, regardless of the actual details of how it’s used. See Google’s AGPL Policy for example. It’s about AGPLv3, not GPLv3, but it shows how cautious companies can get regarding viral licensing restrictions. And if companies have to make some effort to remove the GPLv3 parts, it’s no longer a “drop-in replacement”.
Regarding the Motorola partnership, there might be some devices sold with GrapheneOS preinstalled, I think the details are still not worked out yet. But yeah, you must have an unlockable bootloader for a GOS partnership, even if you’d only want to make devices with it preinstalled, since “Support for using alternate operating systems including full hardware security functionality” is part of their hardware requirements. They want their licensing to allow people to use their code to make devices with an immutable root of trust, but they’re not going to port the official project to such a device, at least according to their current requirements.
Torsten:
> their choice to allow using Googles proprietary SIM Card component instead of also allowing users to choose OpenEUICC (There are other factors there, like “unsafe C code” or lower compatibility. Still sad).
Torsten:
> There is also memory tagging which afaik can protect against a lot of memory related vulnerabilities.
They don’t want to use something that is less secure than what’s used on the stock OS and what they have currently. Sure, GOS has strong exploit protections, but the goal is to decrease the amount of memory unsafe code in the OS, not increase it. The Google app integration doesn’t share any data, but even if you consider OpenEUICC to be better than the current approach, it would be a waste of time to work on integrating it if they still have to replace it later by their own app because it’s not satisfactory.
Torsten:
> Understandably, they mentioned they would work on something but that doesn’t seem to exist yet after multiple years.
They have a lot to work on and many higher priority things.
Interestingly, one of their devs was working on an eSIM app recently, but I assume it’s just a proof of concept at this point. They did start a serious effort to improve the default OS experience this year and hired an app team, so we might see progress on eSIMs too in the not too far future.
Torsten:
> They use ReFra and plan to use FlorisBoard so I think it is clear that they are not able to just rewrite the world to get what they want.
Well, if there are projects that meet their requirements it’s better than starting from the legacy AOSP apps or from scratch. But they did rewrite the AOSP Messaging app and are doing the same for the Contacts app (and will be doing it for the Phone/Dialer app, and potentially Clock and Calculator).
Torsten:
> Also, their apps might work but still have way less features. Compare MJ PDF to their PDF reader etc.
Oh, I agree there, but they will get better over time. Their PDF Viewer still lacks a lot of important features, but the recent update was already a nice improvement, having to use the menu arrows to change pages was rough. But it’s precisely because they made it themselves with a unique approach (WebView, CSP) that their PDF Viewer is particularly secure, you wouldn’t have gotten that had they just integrated another app.
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Torsten:
> There are valid arguments against wiping your device at all. In many countries “destruction of evidence” is clearly regulated so you shouldn’t even think about it.
True, that’s why I said it should only be used if the situation really calls for it, if the benefits of using it outweigh the consequences.
Torsten:
> * you shouldn’t give cops access anyways and don’t have to in most countries. Pixels especially with USB-port lock are not crackable, this would simply be an extra protection.
>
Fully agree with this, this probably would have been the best course of action in the recent case.
Torsten:
> * not every analysis uses the best tools, which are expensive and proprietary
>
Yes, but the point is, it’s a feature with no guarantee it will fulfill its intended purpose. People might wrongly believe it does and put themselves at risk because of that. And in general, if a feature can be defeated, you can’t and shouldn’t rely on it as part of your threat model, especially in high-stakes situations like that. Even if you want to believe it will be fine and useful in a lot of cases, awareness of it will spread over time and adversaries will adapt to deal with it systematically, and the feature will end up as nothing more than a misleading hazard.
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Torsten:
> In the current state, yes kinda.
Ok, saying the project is “useless in its current state” is different from simply saying it’s “useless”. I still don’t agree, because it’s a nice way to get the few apps that are on there. Besides that, I think the reason GOS decided to include it in their App Store so early is to put the project in the spotlight and encourage people to use it. Ultimately though, Accrescent is still alpha software and lberrymage is working on it alone for now, so of course it takes time for it to reach maturity.
Torsten:
> The idea is good, for proprietary apps.
They plan to have an open source tag, so it will be nice for FOSS apps too. I do hope they strictly enforce builds being completely blob-free for this, otherwise I think it would be misleading to users and would make it hard to establish a clear and unambiguous criteria for what counts as open source.
Torsten:
> I mean, they could include Obtainium and Verified-Apps in their store too, why not?
While they do mention using Obtainium + AppVerifier, since currently it can be the best way to get apps in a lot of cases, I think this is not something they consider satisfactory and want to really encourage, especially since it’s a convoluted approach that people lacking the required tech literacy can’t be expected to use.
Torsten:
> they could remove apps later without issues
Once people end up depending on them being available in the App Store as part of their setup, it’s hard to walk that back.
Torsten:
> Reproducible builds on F-Droid are built by the dev but checked by F-Droid
No objection that reproducible builds solve the trusted party problem. I don’t know what the current percentage is, but I think this is still far from the majority of apps.
Torsten:
> including a useful appstore in apps and giving users a quick start would be enough
Torsten:
> the drawback of needing to insecurely obtain a more full-featured FOSS appstore like F-Droid
Torsten:
> ignoring the world of alternatives is not smart
At the end of the day, F-Droid doesn’t meet their security standards, so they won’t include it, it’s that simple. I personally appreciate GrapheneOS having high standards and sticking to them. As a user I know I can trust things to be solid, and it helps raise the bar in the privacy community as a whole. As a result of them having strict standards, we now have an OEM improving some of their devices to meet them.